Learn how our members and communities are changing the world.

Our citizen-funded spacecraft successfully demonstrated solar navigation for the CubeSat.

NASA's James Webb Space Telescope will completely change our understanding of the universe.

Volunteer as an advocate of space.

Advance space science and exploration with other space enthusiasts.

Get updates and weekly tools to learn, share, and advocate for space exploration.

Accelerate the progress of our three core enterprises-exploring the world, finding life and defending the earth. You can support the entire fund, or you can specify a core enterprise of your choice.

Understand the universe and our place in it.

Enable citizens of the world to advance space science and exploration.

Please accept the statistics cookie to listen to this podcast.

Chief Scientist of The Planetary Society/LightSail Project Manager

Planetary Radio Host and Producer of the Planetary Society

As part of the 2021 virtual seminar, Planetary Radio host Mat Kaplan interviewed NIAC researchers about their revolutionary project. You will hear some highlights, including how we grow structures with fungi on the moon and Mars, and how the solar sail will be extremely close to the sun before it moves away from the solar system. We will also learn about another latest development with Bruce Betts, the chief scientist of society.

Please accept marketing cookies to watch this video.

The game is suspended this week! We will announce the two recent contest winners in an episode on November 3, 2021.

Mat Kaplan: Is this a glimpse of our space future? The 2021 NIAC Symposium on Planetary Radio this week.

Mat Kaplan: Welcome, I’m Mat Kaplan of the Planetary Society, and I’ve done more human adventures in our solar system and other places. This week's special program, even though I am on vacation. Although we originally wanted to meet in person within three days in September, the NIAC Fellows annual seminar has made progress in the virtual world. I am honored to host several researchers and other participants again in the nine games. Today you will hear the point of these conversations.

Mat Kaplan: NIAC is NASA's innovative and advanced concept program. I think you will agree that it is worthy of its name. We will learn more about the frontiers or frontiers of space technology through another latest development by Bruce Betts.

Mat Kaplan: I can’t share the headlines of the downlink with you because I made this episode a few days ago, but it doesn’t prevent you from visiting Planetary.org/downlink to see the latest version of the Planetary Association newsletter, and a new one Every Friday. You can also send it to your inbox as easily as I did, and it’s always free.

Mat Kaplan: We will start our NIAC visit with an overview of the project leader. Jason Derleth is the NIAC project executive at NASA headquarters. He is the opening speaker of this year's seminar. Let me remind Jason first, how he said that the new NASA Deputy Administrator Palmmelroy described NIAC.

Mat Kaplan: She called NIAC the seed core of NASA. I think this is a very apt metaphor.

Jason Derleth: Yes, this is what I think of NIAC. I think we are NASA venture capitalists. We got a little money, and we tried to invest it in things that might happen in the future, hoping that some of these things can be realized and really get rich. But obviously, as venture capitalists, we are not making money, what we are doing is investing in the future of mankind in space. So rich may mean getting someone out to mine asteroids and sell water, so other people may actually make a lot of money, but what it will do is allow humans to go deeper into space and help us explore, this is it All of it.

Mat Kaplan: You mentioned some things just now, the researcher's project, we will hear about it in the next few days. You also mentioned that most of the projects funded through the NIAC program may never become any actual or real projects, but even some of them will have a ripple effect. I don't know if you can see it in your photos, but in my space tie, Ingenuity still flies over the surface of Mars from time to time. Didn't you say that Ingenuity was inspired by the NIAC project?

Jason Derleth: Yes, Ingenuity's PI actually mentioned it in an article. We contacted him and he confirmed, yes, he got the idea from watching the presentation. It's a bit like what we are doing today, going to the world and living, without knowing what people will say. This is a meeting with only that structure. It is really a working meeting, various projects report their progress to the planning office, and we are evaluating their project reports, in essence. But like I said, we bring everyone together and make it this kind of original fellowship, the creativity of fellowship and the advanced concept thinkers who help each other. They are not only pursuing their own careers, but also helping everyone else to pursue their careers while helping to explore.

Mat Kaplan: When you talked about this in your opening speech, you made a very good point, that is that interdisciplinary nature is important to NIAC, and it is another reason why bringing everyone together is so important. I just hope we are all in a big room in Tucson, which is of course the plan before the pandemic, the Delta variant. I have seen the synergy that happens after the speech, one person will walk up to the other person and say, "Hey, we need to talk." You have to see a lot.

Jason Derleth: My favorite story is that when I was having breakfast in the hotel restaurant one morning, a man in rags came up to me and said, "Thank you for participating in this meeting. I stayed until the last three o'clock in the evening. Talk alone, and we will work together as a team to make suggestions for the next call." This does happen, and maybe every few years, we will receive proposals from teams that meet and collaborate during the seminar. So this is great.

Matt Kaplan: Exactly. Can you introduce NIAC's working methods, proposal formulation methods, evaluation methods, and funding methods through elevator speeches?

Jason Derleth: Yes, absolutely. We are open to anyone who is legally able to work in the United States, so we usually receive about 300 proposals each year. The project office reviewed these 300 first-stage research proposals. I have mentioned that this is a nine-month study that cost 125,000 US dollars last year. Now we are in an open call for up to 175,000 US dollars this year. We looked at these 300 people and we excluded anyone who was outside the scope of the plan, a large proportion of them. For potential proposers, all I can say is to read the request for comments, maybe even every day when you write the proposal. If you are outside the scope of the plan, no matter how good your ideas are, we will not be able to choose you.

Jason Derleth: So we selected about 110 for a full group review. I should say that those initial proposals were only a three-page white paper describing the idea and how to use it in the future, if it was a successful technology development. A full eight pages of proposals enter the group review, where we hire experts in various fields, which means we must have multiple fields sitting at the table for almost every review. But we make sure that we have at least one or two experts in the actual field of each proposal being reviewed, and then we have a technical team to review, these experts discuss each proposal and rank them, and provide us with a ranking list.

Jason Derleth: We choose this list, choose the best from the list, and then we check to make sure that NASA has no other places to fund similar work. We will work with our own mission board, higher-level technical developers, and Other technologies are checked against people in other NASA mission boards, such as the Science Mission Council. I put technical experts there to see if these groups have any special interests or special disinterests. Then we provide the entire set of information we collected in a small package to the source selection officials, who then select...about 16 winners each year.

Jason Derleth: Like I said, anyone who is eligible to work legally in the United States is eligible to propose to NIAC, so we have graduate students who propose and win. One of our undergraduates proposed and won the NIAC award. We have garage inventors. Literally, one of our colleagues has an optical bench in his garage and he is working. We already have physical therapists who suggest how to perform artificial gravity in a new way that has never been thought of before. Normally, you rotate the spacecraft and the astronauts will stick to it. He came up with an interesting way to do it linearly with a sled. So we asked these very creative people from medium-sized companies, small companies and even NASA to come up with new ideas. Although when NASA can make recommendations to the NASA program, it sounds a bit like an insider pool, but many people have very challenging ideas, and the status quo is not always acceptable.

Jason Derleth: A good example might be that the Apollo project has an earth orbit intersection and a lunar orbit intersection, where the rocket is launched, then they turn the capsule and pull out the LEM, then they take the entire assembly to the moon, and they separate NS. The LEM reaches the ground, then the astronaut returns and docks with the command module again, and then goes home. That's not the preferred solution. An engineer from the Langley Research Center said, "This is the correct method, and I can prove it mathematically." He had to continue to argue, continue to argue, continue to argue, and finally people said, " That may be the only thing we can do. Let us do this."

Jason Derleth: We got people like this, but they said, "Hey guys, there might be a better way." We are one of the few places where they can go and take a little money for real research to show their ideas It may be the best way, or even the only way.

Mat Kaplan: So how can people in the first stage reach the second stage and then reach the final level of the third stage?

Jason Derleth: What I want to say is that the third stage does not exist. As the proponent of the plan, I think this is the best strategy. Always do well, be prepared, and seize opportunities that arise. Even if you have just completed the first phase of the proposal, maybe you can get funding from the implementing organization immediately, which is the best way. NIAC has very little money and very little research. So what we have done is that we have students who have completed their studies but have not yet won the second stage. Yes, this means that those who have won the study in the past but have not won the second stage can re-present. They developed a longer proposal for a $500,000 study that lasted two years, which could be as long as 20 or 25 pages, depending on the year. We will review the proposal and have a technical team composed of experts in the field give us a score and ranking, and then we will submit it to the source selection officer after checking to make sure that there are still no duplicate funds anywhere else. Very similar to the stage.

Jason Derleth: For the third stage, we did a very similar process, but there is no technical team, because the NIAC project office has been mentoring these people for four years. We feel that we are experts on these issues, and then we especially get opinions from the mission council, because the third stage is the stage we get every year. We only have one, which is why I said, especially for the second stage, “Don’t expect the third stage to be your source of funding. Try to find an implementer who wants your technology.” But for those there are too many risks For those who cannot advance with the implementer, the third stage may be a way to achieve it. If they can win the championship for a year, the NIAC planning office will select and run it downwards, and the implementers in the organization will run each, so the human exploration and operations mission director or the scientific mission director.

Jason Derleth: Right now we don't have one for aviation, but if we have a third-phase aviation proposal, we will go to the Aviation Mission Council. We will then submit it to the source selection officer. The source selection official chooses, and finally makes the final decision.

Mat Kaplan: Talk about the NIAC external committee, because it is a collection of all the stars.

Jason Derleth: So the original NIAC plan had an external committee to help guide it to the edge of possible. We implemented this when we launched the new plan again in 2011 and 2011. The purpose of the external committee is to prevent us from slowly spreading to a simple (if you will) an additional government program.

Jason Derleth: Over time, government plans tend to avoid risks. They choose certain things rather than uncertain things, because this is how you succeed, and success is everything in your personal career. The NIAC plan does not want this to happen, so we have a large group of people...a large group of people are nine, eight, or eight experts from the field, and experts in different fields help us understand how well we are doing. They are not involved in the selection process at all, but they will give us feedback on what we choose every year and tell us, "Hey, this is a bit beyond the boundaries of science fiction, and the others seem to be too easy to implement. For the NIAC project It's too easy, so you need to think about it."

Jason Derleth: We are very grateful for their time and investment in the project. They are absolutely important to keep this project at the forefront. I really appreciate each of them for attending these conferences and asking questions every year because they help researchers and research to better solve these problems.

Mat Kaplan: Jason Derleth, NIAC project executive.

Mat Kaplan: By the way, I want to thank all the great people at NIAC for their support. They created a miracle, because it was obvious that the Delta variant would make it unwise to hold the forum in person. All presentations are available on demand on the NIAC seminar website. We will provide the link on the episodes of the week page at Planetary.org/radio.

Mat Kaplan: I also want to thank the University of Arizona. The school looks forward to showing us the mirror laboratory and other facilities. They still provide an impressive panel discussion, which makes me even more eager to visit Tucson in the near future.

Mat Kaplan: Let's listen to the first of the nine NIAC researchers I talked to throughout the seminar. Lynn Rothschild of NASA Ames Research Center joined us before. Lynn is a NIAC Fellow in the second phase of 2021. She reported her amazing work on fungi, which might one day give people living on the moon a home. This is how the rest begins.

Mat Kaplan: So far, it is absolutely pleasant to hear these speeches. Typical diversity, various amazing solutions, many of which may not be able to see the horizon. Speaking of not seeing the sky, I would say that this seems to be very suitable for mushrooms and fungi. Lynn Rothschild is with us.

Mat Kaplan: Lynn, it’s nice to see you again, and it’s nice to see someone sitting on the hyphal network stool again.

Lynn Rothschild: Yes, that's great. In the international genetic engineering machine competition, I have a group of students you call IGEM. They are working on this project. Without my knowledge, they turned around and produced this awesome little one in two weeks. stool. As I always say, it is evaluated manually because they are all sitting on it, and it is currently in my office, so I know I can sit on it too. So it was even rated as an adult old lady, I think this is a wonderful proof of the power of being able to build things with the fungus Mycotecture.

Mat Kaplan: And build them faster than I expected. For what we heard in your recent speech, Mycotecture Off Planet, this seems to be a good sign. Of course you are now a second-stage researcher in 2021, so you have reached that advanced level. There is something on your first slide. You listed some of the benefits of using fungi to help build the structures needed as humans expand (at least to the moon and beyond). It refers to the psychological properties or advantages of using fungi to make things. Do you have any idea?

Lynn Rothschild: Well, the interesting thing is that when you build with fungus, you can use it as a material. In fact, a few people like Bill Rose have used fungi, especially mycelium, and then squashed them into faux leather for high-end handbags. So you can use mycelium yourself. But you can also use it as an adhesive. People have done this, including my brilliant colleague Chris Maurer, an architect at Redhouse Studios, who has been working very, very seriously. You can use it to glue things like wood chips or lawn clippings. Obviously, we won't have any of them on Mars, but when you make wood chips, you end up with something you swear to be particleboard.

Lynn Rothschild: In fact, when telling an off-campus story, I took an example to NASA headquarters and said, "What do you think?" They smelled it and said, "This is particleboard, but it smells a bit like mushrooms." I Say, "Well, yes, because it is." Therefore, it is possible for you to build something warm and comfortable that we are more familiar with. You can paint, you can make them into different colors. In my opinion, using this method will bring huge psychological benefits, and we prefer this method on earth, not just staring at a steel wall and living in a big tin can.

Mat Kaplan: When I read your project description on the NIAC website, I saw references to build bacteria and cyanobacteria into these structures. Then there is a very interesting mention that bacteria release oxygen. Is this also a practical thing?

Lynn Rothschild: Yes, I hope it is practical. I think this is a good idea. So for a long time, I have been promoting this idea, on the earth, we use... well, we use... the earth has evolved organisms that use the raw materials on the earth: water, Carbon dioxide is extracted from the atmosphere, minerals, etc., and converted into sugars, proteins and nucleic acids, etc., which other organisms like us can eat. This is actually how the world has operated for billions of years. So for me, we should use the exact same method to leave the earth, especially if you are dealing with a place like Mars with carbon dioxide and water. Why not use photosynthetic organisms such as cyanobacteria.

Lynn Rothschild: They can take water, break it down, and spit out oxygen as waste, but obviously this is very important to us, and once again provides an interface between the raw materials on the earth and other organisms, for example, we need to eat ourselves. Instead of building a machine to do this for you, why not use these carefully evolved machines called life? So I believe this will be the key interface, which is why we actually recently completed a satellite mission and tested some of these concepts completely outside the NIAC plan, but we also included it in this specific project with the fungus Mycotecture middle.

Mat Kaplan: I am also very interested in the NIAC website and your introduction to the ground application of this technology. This will be a lovely derivative product that will even arouse the interest of the chef. Can you expand it a bit? I mean, is this something you think will help build structure, especially in disadvantaged areas, third world countries?

Lynn Rothschild: Of course, my good colleague Chris Maurer has already started a project in Namibia, and we certainly imagine that we can build fast structures that you can use as garages or refugee shelters. But in addition to considering Mycotecture for the complete habitat, you can use it instead of many things. I am looking at you now, sitting in your room, it looks like you have a wooden or wooden imitation desk, behind you may be a dressing table and bookshelves, etc., file cabinets. There is no reason not to use the fungus Mycotecture to make each of these things and do a little bit on the limbs, I bet if we are not binding, we can make your hats and shirts and tie anything with it, if we Just use it, then you will have a kind of imitation leather Mycotecture. I'm not sure if we can make your glasses or your computer, but we can make a very good computer case for you.

Mat Kaplan: I look forward to shopping on your new website, The Myco Market. Please forgive this Trekkie dyed in wool. Maybe I should say I contracted the fungus Trekkie. Have you watched Star Trek Discovery? One of those new series that you have to stream. In the exploration of Star Trek, there is a network of hyphae across the entire universe... Of course, pure science fiction, until we discover it... This is obviously more than the speed drive. So maybe you will help us travel between the stars, and the work you do today might turn out to be that one day, at least in the Star Trek universe, Lynn.

Lynn Rothschild: That is my next NIAC.

Matt Kaplan: Lynn Rothschild of NASA Ames. What follows is a conversation with two NIAC researchers. Chris Morrison works for a company called Ultra Safe Nuclear Corporation or USNC. His first phase of NIAC research in 2021 is called the extra solar celestial body interceptor and sample return, realized by a compact ultra-power-dense radioisotope battery. Wow. Joe Nemanick works for an aerospace company. He introduced his first phase of research in 2021, entitled "Atomic Plane Power or APPLE for Lightweight Exploration".

Mat Kaplan: Gentlemen, both of you seem to be trying to solve a problem I have been hearing from mission scientists and engineers, which can be summarized as "give us more power". You both have ways to do this.

Mat Kaplan: Chris, yours may be more revolutionary than evolutionary. For those of you who might have missed it, can you tell us...I have been asking people to give a 60-second elevator speech about what you want to do, especially CAB, this rechargeable atomic battery?

Chris Morrison: Yes, thank you for your introduction. So this is a technology that uses the alternative radioactive isotope plutonium 238, which has always been the backbone of NASA's plan. If you look back in the 1960s, NASA actually studied many different radioisotopes, but they chose that one because it was the best. Except in some cases, you don't need a half-life of 87 years. If you are going to Pluto, save plutonium for Pluto, but for this sample return mission I want to do, it will be a 15-year mission. Therefore, choosing isotopes with a short half-life and high power density is helpful for this task. The technology I’m working on is not only suitable for this specific isotope, but my idea is that someone can come to me and say, “I have this mission. It’s so long and so powerful. What technical options do you have for me,” I can Find the right one for them. Generally speaking, plutonium is very good, but in some special fields, alternative radioisotopes may be very good.

Mat Kaplan: You are talking about the use of Cobalt 60. I think you said that its energy is 30 times the energy we get from the plutonium power system and RTG.

Chris Morrison: Yes, it’s 30 times the power, so in terms of the energy stored inside, it’s roughly the same, but the difference is that one releases that energy in about 100 years, the other at 100 This energy is released within a period of about five years. Therefore, due to the short half-life, the power density is very high.

Mat Kaplan: Joe, as I said, your project may be more evolutionary because you are still talking about using Plutonium, but it is still a fascinating job, and you are fighting for it, I think you say, about twice, My guess is that we get the watts per gram from the RTG that has powered so many NASA missions so far. Tell us something about APPLE.

Joe Nemanick: Yes, so the concept behind APPLE is to use a monolithic and large MMRTG design. You have to build the entire spacecraft around it, because of how big it is, how much energy it emits, and making a smaller compact , In this case, a graphic design that allows you to then do your task design by saying "this is how much power we need", I can say, "Well, you need X PALS, you need 16 PALS, or 12 PALS, to meet your mission motivation needs." We chose Plutonium mainly because of its shorter half-life, and we did find that we needed [inaudible 00:26:03] better.

Joe Nemanick: We were initially working on things like [inaudible 00:26:07] 90 and [inaudible 00:26:08], but we found penetration of things like beta and gamma rays The depth is so great that we encountered difficulty merging a flat tile. We do not have much space for radiation protection and shielding in this area. Therefore, what we want is [inaudible 00:26:26]. So at this point, the plutonium itself actually shields most of the alpha particles. In most cases, alpha particles are captured and converted into thermal energy within the actual isotope itself.

Mat Kaplan: Joe, when I see your diagrams of these relatively small devices, I have been thinking about integrated circuits. I mean this looks like something on a whim, but I know it's a bit outdated, but is this a decent comparison in any way?

Joe Nemanick: This is actually a pretty good comparison, because what we found is the quality of plutonium, the quality of the battery, and the quality of the radiator. These are not really important contributors to the overall quality of the tiles. What really drives it is the quality of thermoelectricity. These are semiconductor materials and will be manufactured in a similar way to FAB. I am studying how to actually construct the next step of this new graphic design. We will learn lessons from the field of semiconductor manufacturing to get this simpler thermoelectric design, and then surround them with our different types of insulating materials to really let the heat flow only from the hot shoe to the cold shoe, our radiator.

Mat Kaplan: Chris, I will come back to you because I am interested in the fact that you have additional solar objects in the name of this project. Was it inspired by our recent encounters with Comets Oumuamua and Borisov, or was it just accelerated by thinking that this might be a way to reach the next of these visitors from interstellar space?

Chris Morrison: So I have proposed NIAC in graduate school for several years, and even in the past two years, my task has traditionally been solar gravitational lensing. The kind seems to be a long-lasting, long-distance goal. But when I saw Oumuamua, I thought, "Hey, it’s really cool because it’s not a distance issue, but a speed issue, which changes the equation." If it’s a distance issue, you have to wait a certain amount of time to get there. Destination, and it may take a long time. Therefore, if you have an isotope that decays and has a short lifespan, it is not suitable for the task. You want a radioisotope with a longer lifespan. But for these special tasks, these objects will enter the interior of the solar system, everything is to accelerate the speed quickly, which is the source of this innovation in my opinion.

Chris Morrison: It's like a light switch that pops out of my mind, because I have been evaluating radioisotopes and fusion systems... I would also like to learn more about fusion systems, I think these are true Cool, but my background is more about radioisotopes and fission. I just saw this and a light bulb was on. I have a feeling that in many future NIACs, chasing Oumuamua or going to some of the additional solar celestial bodies will be more of a common theme, because it just provides a very interesting scientific opportunity, which has never been I did it before.

Mat Kaplan: Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if you are incorrect in this matter. Joe, what's next for Apple, your little tile?

Joe Nemanick: So for APPLE, the next step is to find the manufacturing and testing of thermoelectric designs. We believe that we can determine the concept of thermal isolation in the first stage, but no one really completes the conversion of planar thermoelectricity and thermoelectricity. This is the next big thing we need to show to show that we can build these thermoelectric devices in different ways and still get the efficiency we are calculating.

Mat Kaplan: Great, thank you, gentlemen. I want to know, in one sentence, can you tell us, each of you, how important is this kind of support from NIAC to your work? Chris?

Chris Morrison: It has increased visibility and interest, and I think it has affected people, at least in the United States, to see a lot of these cool concepts. So visibility is very important.

Mat Kaplan: Joe, thanks to Chris, you have a few seconds to think about this issue. What will you add?

Joe Nemanick: We found that the researcher community provided by NIAC does provide us with a lot of good connections with people who can answer difficult questions. Everyone on our team is an expert in our field, but many fields need to be integrated into collaborative fashion to make this kind of technology work. NIAC played an important role in influencing this.

Mat Kaplan: Joe Nemannick of Aerospace Corporation and Chris Morrison of Ultrasafe Nuclear Corporation.

Mat Kaplan: Sigrid Close is also a NIAC researcher in the first phase of 2021. Although she was able to record her speech for the first day of the seminar, she was unable to talk to me live during the break. Her colleague Nicholas Lee stepped in to discuss a study called SCATTER, which is the continuous activity of ChipSat and CubeSat by transmitting electromagnetic radiation. Their dream is to send a powerful mothership to a destination like Uranus.

Mat Kaplan: You also boarded this mothership. I think you said that 20 to 100 such miniature spacecraft will be sent for further exploration. Am I right?

Nicholas Lee: Yes, that's right. The idea is to allow distributed measurements without having to fly a mature second mothership with its own nuclear power and everything that comes with it, all costs are spent on large spacecraft design.

Mat Kaplan: I'm from the Planetary Society, so you know what I want to point out is that it's exciting to see that you basically rely on light sail technology. These micro-aircraft are not only driven by lasers. Motherships, but they actually obtain propulsion, attitude control, and communication through lasers.

Nicholas Lee: This concept has evolved over time. I think this is the third time we have actually proposed the form of the project to NIAC. Initially, we had a graduate student, Sean Young, who just graduated and is now at Johns Hopkins APL. He is considering harvesting energy from the space environment itself. Therefore, this will be for example spacecraft charging or observing the impact of meteoroids or rain particles on the spacecraft, collecting acoustic energy or the resulting radio frequency energy, or trying to develop a tether system that can extract energy from space. Outside the plasma or magnetic layer.

Nicholas Lee: Many of these numbers are very low, unless you really expand the space [inaudible 00:33:09] design, then what if we bring our power. So we have these deployable detectors, they will be powered by some collection system, but what if the system collects power that we can control? This is where we bring laser or radio frequency energy from the mothership. When we study these numbers, RF does not seem to be feasible at all, so we mainly focus on lasers. Once we had the laser there, all of this work, as some people said in the chat, and many others have studied breakthrough star shots and light sails.

Nicholas Lee: My PhD initially started to study solar sails or CubeChats. All these technologies can be wrapped in a smaller spacecraft, the more agile it becomes in the laser. At the beginning of the whole project, what we didn't really understand was how small spacecraft we could make, how small lasers we could make and still fly in it. This is where we are now trying to converge these numbers.

Mat Kaplan: I guess there are many laymen, and I am one of them myself. Maybe look at your plan and need a 25 watt laser... They will think of a 25 watt light bulb. Actually, a 25 A watt laser, especially the collimated beam you propose can provide quite a bit of energy, can't it?

Nicholas Lee: Yes, so one of the advantages of lasers is that they are usually monochromatic, so they work on a single wavelength. Therefore, when we consider building solar cells, [inaudible 00:34:39] lasers, we focus on the single wavelength of light we emit, which means we can do more with simpler batteries. Just like a single junction battery should be able to convert more energy. Recent articles published by other research groups show that the efficiency is as high as 58%.

Mat Kaplan: I like your description of these small satellites, chip satellites, and cube satellites, at least starting from very, very small size as disposable or consumables. You compare this to when Captain Picard on the Enterprise sends out the probe. For comparison, he didn’t really want to take it back. What explanation, I mean, why the large flagship-style spacecraft can’t do their work by themselves? Other instruments are installed on these miniature spacecraft sent from the mothership. What is the real advantage?

Nicholas Lee: So the one thing we really focus on is the concept of distributed measurement, which has been deployed around the earth, [inaudible 00:35:41] mission, Artemis mission. Many spacecraft have orbited the earth system. Swarm is another type. By flying multiple sensors and making the same measurement within a certain distance, what you get is how the measured values ​​change over time and how they change over space.

Mat Kaplan: Very interesting. We just saw the PI of a newly approved Mars mission on the planetary radio. It has two cube satellites that work with Mars’ magnetosphere and measure it for the same reason. They provide data in time and space that sounds like you are also looking for.

Mat Kaplan: An audience member, I want to talk to you about the self-centered Light Sails. What strikes me is that this is exactly the kind of synergy that NIAC really warms everyone's heart. Sounds like you, I bet you want to follow up.

Nicholas Lee: We definitely [inaudible 00:36:41] have a conversation with different NIAC projects and how they work together.

Mat Kaplan: Nicholas Lee, speaking on behalf of NIAC researcher Sigrid Close at Stanford University.

Mat Kaplan: There are also a few NIAC researchers who want to tell us about their fascinating concepts. This is my conversation with a special keynote speaker at the 2021 NIAC seminar. All of this and Bruce Betts are within easy reach.

Sarah Ahmed: A lot of things have happened in the fields of space, science and exploration, we are here to share with you. Hi everyone, my name is Sara, the digital community manager of the Planetary Society. Are you looking for a place to get more space? Get the latest space exploration news, beautiful planetary pictures and Planetary Society publications on our social media channels. You can find The Planetary Society on Instagram, Twitter, YouTube and Facebook. Make sure you like and subscribe so you don't miss the next exciting update from the planetary science world.

Mat Kaplan: We are back with more highlights from the 2021 NASA Innovative Advanced Concepts Symposium. Ron Polidan is a researcher of the first phase of NIAC in Texas in 2021. Ron is from Luna Resources Incorporated, but he has a long history as an astrophysicist. He served as the chief technical expert at the legendary Goddard Space Flight Center for many years, and as the chief architect of civil systems at Northrop Grumman. A lot of different things are done now, but one of them is about Luna Resources, a relatively small company.

Ron Bollidan: Oh, thank you now. It is a pleasure to be here. Glad you invited me.

Mat Kaplan: Oh, of course, we are very happy for you to join. Of course, congratulations on becoming a NIAC researcher and being able to work on this project. You call it Far View, an observatory that manufactures far-end radios on the moon. This is not the only talk we heard at the NIAC seminar about building a large telescope on the back of the moon. I remember a photo of a very speculative antenna from the far side of the 1970s in the last few days. So this is a question that people have been thinking about for a long time. You mentioned this issue in your speech, but please remind us, why is it so useful to have this kind of facility on the far side instead of the dark side of the moon?

Ron Polidan: One aspect of general science is that we always open new windows when we study. We realize that there are some things that we can't see or do on earth, so we try our best to do this. We started using ultraviolet telescopes and X-ray telescopes in the 1960s. As we learned more and more, we realized that the earth was indeed restricted in many ways. Especially for cosmology, the universe has an era of formation, from the ubiquitous neutral hydrogen to a little helium to the first space of stars and galaxies. We would love to study that.

Ron Polidan: The problem is that the information [inaudible 00:39:44] is transferred to the low-frequency radio, so this 21 cm hydrogen line now appears in an area of ​​tens of megahertz, depending on where you are. Unfortunately, the earth, natural phenomena, and natural disease-causing phenomena all produce a lot of noise, so although in principle you can at least observe the ionosphere [inaudible 00:40:07], it’s like you really didn’t get good The photos are the same. So where can you go to do this? If you are in space, you still see the earth, so it will still be noisy. The sun is noisy. But if you go to the far side of the moon, the moon is a very good blocking filter, so it can block all the noise from the earth, as long as the sun is on the other side, you can get as primitive data as possible, so this is what everyone wants Reasons to put things on the far side.

Mat Kaplan: I remembered the kind of silence that I think all Apollo command module pilots like. They became the furthest human beings from the earth in a short time... and they are still part of our species. There is a suggestion for a single giant antenna, which is generally used for remote dish antennas. Yours is something different. This reminds me of things like ALMA in Atacama, Chile, or the Allen Array operated by the SETI Institute. Are these fairer?

Ron Polidan: Yes, there is a big difference between us and the Moon's equator [inaudible 00:41:08] The telescope is us in the interferometer, so the interferometer provides us with more leverage. It can do all kinds of things. We can actually plot the distribution and get the power spectrum, which is much better than if we use a single disk. We can also image the entire sky every few minutes, so we can collect auxiliary data. Things, our transient sources, such as the magnetic fields on planets in the solar system, we may be able to see the magnetic fields around stars, and hope to see some actual planets from a short distance. This is one of the advantages of the [inaudible 00:41:48] interferometer, and it is also the focus of the [inaudible 00:41:51] interferometer. How do we build a large interferometer on the far side of the moon?

Ron Polidan: The problem is that it must be big. It cannot be 10 dipoles, it must be many dipoles, because the signal is very weak. Our key is that we are building this institute without pre-designed restrictions. So literally, if we get there, suppose we perform a prototype task, we build 10 dipoles, and then we find, "Well, we really need to make them 20% longer," we just make them 20% longer. This is a very different way of perceiving how you are going to build something, and this is its power. Therefore, it is indeed the ability to extract materials and directly manufacture it without any pre-planning, which gives us a lot of influence.

Matt Kaplan: Have you read the book "Artemis" by Andy Weir?

Mat Kaplan: In that book, they used [inaudible 00:42:50] resources to make things from aluminum and this smelter on the moon. I mean, that must have caught your attention?

Ron Bollidan: Oh yes. No, that... interestingly, I read it before joining Lunar Resources.

Ron Polidan: So it was like, "I don't know this." So, yes, so it was an interesting learning experience for me. I come from a different era and understand institutions and how they work. You have to think of different ways to do things. One of the great advantages of Far View is that we will not modify the previous build. We are actually completely orthogonal, we carry as little as possible with us to see what we can make. Whenever we encounter something that needs to bring this from the earth, we say: "Well, why don't we bring this from the earth?"

Ron Polidan: The whole goal is to land only the tools we need to build, and then use the moon for all our resources, which will greatly reduce the cost. The bigger advantage is that if things break, we only need to fix them. Although there is no question of "if thermal cycling destroys the antenna, what do you do?" "Well, let's fix it again." This means that if we want, we can invest in it and own a 50-year observatory. The current design may be one metric ton of land, but it can generate tens of metric tons of resources for large things, habitats, or anything else every year. We can generate enough materials in a year to really make everyone happy.

Mat Kaplan: It sounds like so many years have passed, you still have a great time.

Ron Polidan: Yes, oh, I have been playing more interestingly in recent years than ever.

Mat Kaplan: NIAC Researcher Ron Polidan of the Lunar Resources Department.

Mat Kaplan: We are about to receive a message from Masa Hiro Ono, the second phase of 2020 researcher from NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory. The title of the Hiro study speaks for itself, Enceladus Vent Explorer.

Mat Kaplan: Welcome, Hiro. We have a few minutes to talk.

Hiro Ono: Thank you, thank you, Mat for inviting me.

Mat Kaplan: Of course, you are the recipient of the second phase of NIAC in 2020. The project is of course the Enceladus Vent Explorer, because you and the others in your team... I want to mention Morgan Cable , Your colleague at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, he provided a briefing with you yesterday and was our guest on the planetary radio station, providing a reason for Enceladus. You don't just want to fly over the plumes that rise in Enceladus's Antarctic tiger stripes. You want to visit them. You want to put a spacecraft or our little rover into it. Is this a fair description of what you want to do?

Hiro Ono: Yes, you want to see it, right? When I was young...I used to travel the world. We have some basic wishes and want to see these places. We now know that this wonderful place meets [inaudible 00:45:45] life, encounters alien life, this will answer a basic question of our humanity. Right there, the door is open, why not?

Matt Kaplan: Of course. Yes, the question is, are we alone? Maybe another question our boss Bill Nye likes to ask is, "Where do we come from?" Among them, because it might also help answer this question.

Mat Kaplan: Of course it is possible. I am very happy to see the progress being made, including the simulator and the cryogenic spray equipment you assembled. I think you are at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory...I’m right, do you actually start to simulate these geysers?

Hiro Ono: Yes, yes, of course, we can't look like a complete geyser [inaudible 00:46:29]. What we are making is a miniaturized version of it. However, you can still learn a lot, and you can test the hardware to eliminate major risks.

Mat Kaplan: It is done under vacuum and extremely cold temperature, right?

Mat Kaplan: Morgan, she talked about questions that need to be answered. If we fully explore these plumes of Enceladus, and they span many, many disciplines, do people from different disciplines in the Jet Propulsion Laboratory and elsewhere represent this? I mean, biology, geology, etc.?

Hiro Ono: Oh, yes, of course, we have a very diverse team. In fact, my background is [inaudible 00:47:13] spacecraft, and I am a software expert. But of course, we must cooperate with hardware personnel, system engineers, and scientists in many fields. In fact, we held a seminar and created an HTM with 21 [inaudible 00:47:24] scientists, so this is an aspect of NIAC, yes, what is the real meaning of NIAC. I really like interacting with different people.

Mat Kaplan: This is another reason why we regret that we are not in Tucson now. How important is NIAC's support to the progress of this work?

Hiro Ono: Oh, it's very helpful, because without it, we only have... if you know, I only have cartoons and ideas in my mind. But with the support of NIAC, first of all, we carried out the first iteration. In addition, most importantly, because of this, we can persuade JPL to invest its own funds in protag on the robot. Therefore, this is not only the dollar value you provide, it also has the effect of [inaudible 00:48:04].

Mat Kaplan: So NIAC can provide management with some influence, which sounds like it. [Crosstalk 00:48:10]...

Matt Kaplan: That's great. What's next, I mean, obviously, we are talking about whether there will be an Enceladus lander someday, that's a long way to go. I know Morgan Cable is anxiously looking forward to the release of the next decade of planetary science and astrobiology. I should say that the ten-year survey may arrive next spring.

Hiro Ono: Of course, what Decadal comes out is beyond our control, but nonetheless, our plan is to complete the system transaction research in this NIAC and make a prototype robot and bring it to [audio not clear 00:48:45 ] Glacier tested it in Canada. Of course, our dream is to bring it to Enceladus, right? Personally, the reason I came to this world of space exploration is because of Voyager II, [inaudible 00:48:59] I went to Neptune when I was six years old. I have been pursuing this dream ever since, and I want to be part of these major discoveries in the future. So I really, really hope this will happen, maybe not in my lifetime, maybe in my daughter's lifetime.

Mat Kaplan: You put us on the path of Hiro. Thank you very much and others like you, and thank you for joining us today and this holiday season.

Hiro Ono: Thank you very much, Matt.

Mat Kaplan: Hiro Ono of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory.

Mat Kaplan: Artur Davoyan of the University of California, Los Angeles is another second-stage researcher. His title is "Extreme Solar Voyage for Breakthrough Space Exploration." You might guess why I want to talk to him. I first reviewed the other presentations that the seminar attendees just watched.

Mat Kaplan: Absolutely, wonderful speech. We heard that the sample return rocket from Titan made its own propellant in [Inaudible 00:49:54], the huge space structure unfolded from the tiny payload on top of the Falcon 9, a group of one kilogram The Venus glider mainly uses closed shelf components. For me, this is what NIAC is all about. There were a quarter of the speeches in the last meeting, but we have saved that speech so that we can talk to the PI responsible for the project. He is with us now.

Mat Kaplan: Welcome, Artur Davoyan, your wonderful speech is entitled "Extreme Solar Voyage for Breakthrough Space Exploration". Welcome again.

Artur Davaoyan: Thank you, Matt. Nice to meet you, nice to be here.

Mat Kaplan: Nice to meet you too. I work for the Planetary Society, and we know that solar sails are hot, but I'm not sure if all of us really thought of the kind of heat that you said let solar sails pass through. I heard you right, you are talking about the inner, what? Four or five radii of the sun?

Artur Davoyan: As close as possible. So our hope is to get about two to three solar radii from the surface of the sun. If we can go further, it will be even better. Maybe we can land there, I don't know.

Mat Kaplan: Okay, during some other breaks, I have been deleting Star Trek references here and there. So Star Trek people know that if you are in a distorted state and get too close to the sun, it will make you go back in time. It sounds like what you want to do in the real world is to accelerate us into the future and use the slingshot around the sun to reach unheard distances, right, is it fair to use the sun as a launch pad?

Artur Davoyan: Exactly correct. So our vision is 60 years of fantastic space exploration. We have seen missions to all planets and so on, but if you look carefully, then you will find that the outer planets other than Saturn have only been visited once, so far only two probes have left the solar system, I mean the solar system claims to be , It is not even the solar system and the class reaches the interstellar boundary, interstellar space. So today’s working method is not really scalable. We want to change it. We think we can turn the sun into a launch pad and then mass-produce this low-cost system and send them to the sun, towards the sun, Very close and shoot and slingshot in different directions. This is our hope and vision.

Mat Kaplan: You are a researcher in the second phase of NIAC, so you have also received funding from the first phase to complete some work. Are you now convinced that there are materials that can actually perform this kind of mission, my goodness, there will be extreme situations that must survive, which may be different from any materials we sent into space before.

Artur Davoyan: Yes, we are getting more and more confident, so in the second stage, we will try to show them, really measure and prove that this is the case. In the first phase, we conducted a comprehensive study, and in fact, we released some very promising samples. We did not have the opportunity to measure them in detail, but we did some preliminary measurements on them. So we see that we have the material, and the question now is how close we are to the sun. We can definitely be as close as five to seven solar radii from the surface of the sun. So we are already closer than the Solar [Inaudible 00:53:08] detector can get us there. What we want to try to do in the second stage, I want to prove that we can reach the limit of two to three solar radii from the surface of the sun. The material is there, but now we are trying to push the limit.

Artur Davoyan: I didn't actually mention it in the speech, so we sent one of the samples in the MES task, which is the material exploration task on the ISS board, so it will be tested there. This is a special thanks to NASA Martial Folks who helped us. This is the synergy of cooperation we have seen through NIAC.

Mat Kaplan: My colleague at the Planetary Society and our chief scientist, Light Sail Project Manager, Bruce Betts, obviously you two met at the Solar Sail Metamaterials Symposium a few years ago, by the way. This is us Something to say? What is metamaterial?

Artur Davoyan: Please also say hello to Bruce for me, it is nice to meet him.

Artur Davoyan: Meta Materials are actually all conventional materials. They have certain characteristics that we all know. For example, glass is glass, it is transparent, and we have been using it. Meta Materials, they tried to change the characteristics of Meta Materials by creating a certain structure [inaudible 00:54:15]. So if I use normal glass and start structuring in a very, very small size ([Inaudible 00:54:20] size), then I can make my glass opaque but reflective, and then change it Chengfan material. That is one, we can change the optical properties. I can also control its temperature or heat distribution, and they can also control its mechanical properties. We hope to create a meta-material made of some traditional materials with very small structural dimensions so that they can perform the functions we really want. Like strong, they will comment that it is light in weight, can withstand high temperatures, and make the propeller work, so [inaudible 00:54:54] pressure can really propel our sails.

Mat Kaplan: You don't have one, but two tasks. You talked about this in your speech. One, it will spread far in our solar system, but the other one, I think you call it Corona Net...

Mat Kaplan: You might help us better understand our sun?

Artur Davoyan: Our goal and vision is to send them into farther interstellar space very quickly. That is the ultimate goal there, to study clouds and do science on the way, exoplanets, the heat of physics research, reach interstellar space, understand interstellar space, and so on. But it is clear that the first mission will be carried out there. It will almost reach the sun to see what material the spacecraft can live on, and it can reach two to three solar radii from the sun. Now this will be a technical demonstration task, we have a definite timetable, and we think we can do it. But once we get there, very close to the sun, then basically, we also ask ourselves, what can we do? What can we do useful?

Artur Davoyan: It turns out that the physics of the sun is not well understood, so we can launch several missions that can be completed before launching into interstellar space, technical demonstration missions, and scientific missions to send spacecraft into conventional spacecraft. Unachievable track. For example, polar orbits or some of these halo orbits. We can launch this configuration of the spacecraft, and then try to draw a magnetic field map, a corona map, and the physics of the sun is actually one of the least known and least known. This is one of the main issues that have not yet been resolved. We don’t know what generates the magnetic field, why it switches every 11 years, and why the corona heats up to 1 million degrees. These are all questions we can answer, and we want to answer.

Mat Kaplan: We only have about one minute left. I also noticed that when you put the slides with your team and collaborators, Slav Aturshef at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, NIAC Phase 3 researcher and my old boss [inaudible 00:56:53] were there , So I bet they and others are also talking about using this sail to realize the dream of a solar gravitational lens telescope.

Artur Davoyan: Yes, so they are also based on solar sails, their solar sails are a bit different, and we are working with them. So they are heavier because they need to carry a telescope. Ours is just a smaller one, closer to the sun. So the cost of these advancements is the same, but the technology and mission concepts behind it are quite different.

Mat Kaplan: We don’t have time for me to ask you if you are also talking to Breakthrough StarShot people who want to use lasers to propel tiny sails to Proxima Proxima, but I bet they will be interested in talking about those meta-materials The same is true at times. Artur, thank you very much for joining us this holiday season.

Artur Davaoyan: Thank you, Matt.

Mat Kaplan: My last break at the NIAC seminar allowed me to visit two Phase 3 researchers. Among the many people who spoke at the virtual seminar, I took a break in an alternative way.

Mat Kaplan: I want to give out some awards. The best name for the new spacecraft is the data mule on the Solar System Pony Express by Joshua, Josh Van Der Hook. But the Daily Best Route Award judged by myself was awarded to Charles Taylor because of his "We are more Edison than Tesla", which seems to be a very NIAC statement. Professor Nick Solomey, a high-energy particle physicist, a professor who has worked in Cerne and Fermilab, is talking to us at Wichita State University. Nick did write a book about neutrinos. It is called the elusive neutrino, and he will talk to us about his project, the cube space flight test of the neutrino detector.

Mat Kaplan: Also on the screen is Red Whittaker, William "Red" Whittaker, he is the university research professor of the founder of Carnegie Mellon University. He has worked in the Robotics Research Institute for more than 40 years.

Mat Kaplan: Welcome you two, but Nick, you are new here and have NIAC's 2021 third phase project. You have a spacecraft, and it will... you hope one day, right, flying very close to the sun, very far from the sun.

Nick Solomey: Yes, we have an idea that we can significantly increase the intensity of neutrinos by being very close to the sun. By going to [Inaudible 00:59:31] Currently, we can reach an intensity that is a thousand times higher than the intensity on Earth, and it can reach three solar radii that some people think we can reach, then we can zoom in up to 10,000 Times. This will enable us to do science in solar physics that cannot be done elsewhere.

Matt Kaplan: Then once you go to a place where neutrinos are dense in the environment, you will go there where there are very few, at least a lot less from the sun, right?

Nick Solomey: Yes, so the advantage of neutrinos is that they can penetrate anything. Therefore, we can take them directly from the core of the sun very quickly, but by moving away from the sun, the neutrinos on the earth are the background of the dark matter search. Therefore, by staying away from the sun, we can greatly reduce the background for searching for dark matter. This is the original first stage concept, and we can use this new technology to do both of these things. But we must find a way to truly detect neutrinos in space by carrying only the extracorporeal radiation shielding that we can carry with us. Therefore, we must design a new technology to detect neutrinos in space, which is very different from the way you detect neutrinos on the surface, on the earth, or deep underground.

Mat Kaplan: Red, how is your cute little rover? Will we soon see it approach those pits on the moon?

William "Red" Whitaker: Of course we can. Compared with many plans, one difference of this plan is that in the process supported by NIAC, it has a unique preparation from idea to implementation and the deployment of small economic tasks in the near future. It has gone so far, yes, we will see it on land in today's demonstration.

Mat Kaplan: You should probably give us a little... I always call it the elevator speech description. You have time in the elevator to talk to the NASA administrator about this little rover, the pit rover, it is now... I guess you call this project a skylight now... what it can do Do things for us in these interesting holes on the moon.

William "Red" Whitaker: People dream of exploring and have lived under the moon for a century. The biggest challenge is that there has never been a way to enter that huge underworld. So much has been said about how to explore the cave, how do you really explore and enter the cave? This solved the problem. It does this by adjusting the edges and then slightly correcting vision to see the correct angle and going into darkness, because the cave will be dark. This is like the first human to come to the Grand Canyon.

Mat Kaplan: I want to ask you some questions that I haven't asked any other guests in this seminar, that is, when you listen to each other...I mean, here, you are facing Interesting challenges do not overlap much. I just want to know what you think when you listen to your colleagues, your colleagues, as I always say.

Mat Kaplan: Red, when you listen to Nick, is this as charming to you as I am?

William "Red" Whitaker: Yes. My feeling is that anyone who wants to change their faith must first become a believer and spread it in the inspiring way we just heard. In addition, being trustworthy is very important. This is what NIAC brings to the game. These ingredients are the magic weapon to win.

Matt Kaplan: Well, let go. Nick, you have the final say. How does it feel to be all these great thinkers and dreamers whose projects may bring amazing progress?

Nick Solomey: Well, I am honored to be selected. This is an exciting seminar because there are so many exciting things from how to explore Venus and how to get into the oceanic crust of Jupiter or other moons around Saturn. So there are a lot of exciting things out there, and I find it both exciting and exciting.

Mat Kaplan: Nick Solomey of Wichita State University and William "Red" Whittaker of Carnegie Mellon University, they are two of the four Phase III researchers who will conclude the 2021 NIAC Symposium.

Mat Kaplan: Now have an additional conversation with someone who is not a NIAC researcher. Dane Elliott-Lewis' keynote speech kicked off the final day of the seminar. Dane is an engineer, entrepreneur and manager who has worked for GE Aviation for more than 20 years. Along the way, he wrote several science fiction novels. He also contributed a lot of time to the Society of African American Engineers, and he is a board member of the NSBE Aerospace Special Interest Group. Dane’s inspiration and vision include his admiration for Mae Jemison. When he was undergraduate at Morehouse College, he heard the speech of the first black female astronaut.

Mat Kaplan: Before we started, I told you that I had a surprise for you.

Mat Kaplan: You mentioned that Mae Jemison visited Morehouse during your undergraduate studies there. Do you know that she is currently participating in NIAC?

Dane Elliott-Lewis: I don't know.

Mat Kaplan: Not only that, she is also a member of the NIAC external committee, so I asked Mae if she had been on our program Planetary Radio, did she have a message that she wanted me to pass on, and she did it. She delivered a message and a question and her greetings. She said: "My visit to Morehouse has always been important to me, just like my work at Spelman College."

Mat Kaplan: She said, “I was a member of the NSBE when I was studying for an undergraduate degree in engineering at Stanford University.” This is your surprise.

Dane Elliott-Lewis: Wow, what a surprise.

Matt Kaplan: So this is the question she asks you or asks you. She said she wanted to ask Dane about the best way to get students from historically black colleges and universities into science and engineering. What can NIAC do to get more teachers from HBCU and other minority service organizations to submit applications? I'm sure she meant to submit an application for the NIAC project. Anyone can complete it and anyone can submit it.

Dane Elliott-Lewis: Well, wow, this surprised me. I think that first communicating the existence of these opportunities is what I think is the most important thing. At Morehouse College, my connection with NASA was purely because of the nature of my scholarship program. Everything else in NASA is a black box to me. Therefore, if there is an opportunity for professors to be brought to NASA headquarters, through such a symposium or just briefly introduce the opportunities for this project, to gain in-depth understanding, because I think it will release all types of creativity and entrepreneurship. Opportunities or particularly interested in pursuing aerospace opportunities.

Dane Elliott-Lewis: Morehouse does not have an engineering department. What happens is you go there for three years, and then you go to an engineering school. I went to Georgia Institute of Technology. So I graduated from two universities with an engineering degree from Georgia Institute of Technology and a bachelor's degree in general science from Morehouse College. So I think it has a local presence. If you introduce the concepts of these proposals through a physics professor at Morehouse University or a department chair who specializes in engineering, then these competitions are there, and you will not lose anything if you try it. Don't wait until you become an engineer and you feel that you have many years of experience. Now start thinking about this issue. You planted seeds in today's students. Professors can incorporate it into some of their design projects and say, "Well, my advanced design project is designing anti-submarine warfare aircraft", but there are others, "Hey, do you have a space-related design project? See if you will not meet the requirements of the NIAC proposal."

Mat Kaplan: I was moved by the story of your two trips to the space camp. I never wanted to tell your friends about it because you were afraid that what happened after the second visit would happen. You will basically be degraded, and you will be made fun of. Have you ever wondered how we can change things in this country, from a child you have to hide to a child you come back to become a hero because he or she has been to a space camp?

Dane Elliott-Lewis: Yes, I think STEM careers are starting... They may be bigger... Today they may be more respected than when I was a kid. I know that my child is now in middle school and has STEM power. This is the first step. You need to receive some kind of education that is not just math or science, but to say: "Look, these are careers. There are many opportunities here." So you plant seeds in their schools. I like to tell my children, "It's a completely open space." Just like the opportunity of white space, if you think about those who explore certain parts of the earth and enter different places and say, "Okay, I can People who create something here, whether it's a family or a business opportunity, I think the space is literally, in this sense, it is undeveloped. Where there will be a company founded there, there will be a career.

Dane Elliott-Lewis: There will be new ways of doing things...everything that hotels and people have here, we will go there to do the same thing, we will do what you can do,'Don’t even think about it think. What is better in terms of creativity? Use your creative spirit instead of thinking about how one can apply it outside the world. So I have never discussed with my children, but about entrepreneurship. I think entrepreneurship is an opportunity to truly control your own destiny, you can leave a legacy, and you can actually pass it on to your children. I think this is very suitable for opening up the space. Maybe it’s a bit capitalist, but I will use it to encourage children to say, “Yes, things here are also very interesting, but if you start to look up and think about how I do it, it’s really unlimited to receive this kind of education. , Or accept this kind of experience and this kind of creative thinking, and create something that no one has ever thought of."

Dane Elliott-Lewis: Back to Mae Jemison again, I need to write it out. I need to not just think in my mind that I am going to do these things. I need to make a plan. I need to define something. That is the vision. The vision is, "I will put some details behind this..." in their completely irrelevant thoughts, saying, "This is what the future should look like", or "This is the future I want to create." Once you Lay it out, whether it's on paper, photos, or a useful timetable for you, and you can start filling in the blanks as you complete it. But there needs to be something you are working on, and there needs to be some concepts about tomorrow or that project or what the effort will achieve.

Dane Elliott-Lewis: For me, I think this is an motivating factor in itself, what the future I am building is, but it is also... I think it helps the organization and helps you plan. It can help you define the steps required to achieve that goal. How do I become like Megemison? What do I need to do? I first need to imagine myself in the space laboratory, the space laboratory module is like her image. If I can see myself in that place, then I can start thinking about what I need to get there. So I think the vision is... if there is no certain vision that drives you or helps you focus, you really won't get anywhere.

Mat Kaplan: Engineer and entrepreneur Dan Elliott-Lewis, the 2021 NASA Innovative Advanced Concepts Symposium provides more content, and we don’t even have time to sample. You can hear and see all the presentations on the center website again. We found the link on Planetary.org/radio.

Mat Kaplan: It's time to broadcast the latest developments on Planetary Radio. Holidays in this regular part of our show. During my vacation, I don’t know you, but the chief scientist of the Planetary Society still joins me. This is Dr. Bruce Bates. Welcome to my holiday.

Bruce Bates: Thank you again for taking me on vacation, Matt. I appreciate it.

Mat Kaplan: Yes, you fit well in that trunk.

Bruce Bates: Yes, that part is not so relaxing.

Mat Kaplan: We will let you out at the right time.

Bruce Bates: Thank you. Wow...

Mat Kaplan: We are on vacation, which means there will be no games or answers to the games this week. But I learned from reliable sources that we still have some great things for you. Bruce said, "I'll be very happy." So go and invite me. How is this going?

Bruce Bates: Okay, okay, let's start with the night sky. It is always pleasant. Now it is very pleasant. In the evening sky, there is a super bright Venus in the east.

Bruce Bates: Just test you. Soon after the sun sets, Venus to the west is super bright, and there are bright Jupiters to the east or south or north. As we discussed in the southern hemisphere, Saturn hangs near it and looks yellow. In the next few weeks, they Will get closer and closer. The whole gang.

Bruce Bates: In the pre-dawn sky, we saw Mercury on the 25th. This is the largest extension in the West. It reached its highest point in three or four weeks at pre-dawn gatherings. But the point is that you still have to look very low towards the eastern horizon from Mercury before dawn. If you can watch it within a few days, it’s a bit neater, because we see Mercury in the same aspect as we see. Just like the moon, in the next week or so, it actually brightened a lot, in fact, if you look closely, it should be obvious. More news about Mercury, but we will postpone it next week because it will be...it will be tough. It's low, but worth it. This is an interesting friend, but I digress.

Bruce Bates: Let's go back to this week in space history. This is so cool, Matt. In 2001, the last time I checked was 20 years ago. Mars Odyssey, when I got to Mars, the one I checked last time is still working.

Bruce Betts: Happy 20th anniversary, Mars Odyssey and the excellent team that has been creating and running it.

Mat Kaplan: Congratulations to all of you. We talk to some of them from time to time in this show, and the performances it has performed and will continue to perform. Yes, I mean, this is its name, right? This is to commemorate Arthur C. Clarke's book and Stanley Cooper's movie.

Mat Kaplan: We have even passed the sequel now. The first sequel in 2001, which was in 2010, was back to that strange object... I don't remember whether it was Jupiter or Saturn. Of course it is Jupiter in the movie, but Saturn in the original book. But Kubrick thought it was too difficult to make Saturn look realistic. There is a random movie space fact for you.

Bruce Bates: Wow, that's great. Well played, sir. But I will continue to discuss random space facts.

Mat Kaplan: That's great, I like the jingle.

Bruce Betts: Maybe we will use that again. It would be great if I could remember it. Well, I think you will like this. In the time I finished reading this sentence, the Voyager 1 spacecraft has been about 200 kilometers away from us on Earth. Prosperity.

Mat Kaplan: Have you really timed the sentence and figured it out? I mean you have to figure this out, I think?

Bruce Bates: I did it, but I won't swear that I delivered it exactly right, but about that.

Bruce Bates: I assume, 12 second sentences, you can go back and check. Anyway, [crosstalk 01:16:16]...

Mat Kaplan: No, I am very happy. I do not want to know. I just want to believe in that wonderful random space fact.

Bruce Bates: Exactly, this is exactly the time it takes to reach 200 kilometers away, and I believe that since we have been talking about it, it has reached 500 kilometers away.

Mat Kaplan: Yes, if we don't shut up, it will be 1,000 kilometers away. That's so interesting...

Bruce Bates: Great, thank you.

Matt Kaplan: Or what? Hey, there is no game to go.

Bruce Bates: Ah, what should I do?

Mat Kaplan: Only one week off, because next week I promise there will be a new game, then the winner, and two new winners next week. This will be a wonderful return. I don't know what else to say, it seems strange that there is no game, except to say that we are done.

Bruce Bates: Okay, everyone. Go out, look up at the night sky, think about questions and answers. Thanks, good night.

Mat Kaplan: The really big ones, those that bother us all, may now be 2,000 kilometers. He is Bruce Bates, the chief scientist of the Planetary Society, who joins us every week, even if I am not really there, or 2,001 kilometers? Woo...

Mat Kaplan: Planetary Radio is produced by the Planetary Society in Pasadena, California, and consists of its innovative and very advanced members. Learn how easy it is to be one of us at planetary.org/join.

Mat Kaplan: Mark Hilverda and Jason Davis are our associate producers. Josh Doyle composed our theme song, arranged and performed by Pieter Schlosser.

Listen to more: Planetary Radio, Interview, World, Earth-Moon System, Moon, Mars System, Mars, Space Theme, Space Technology, Solar Navigation

You are here: Home> Planetary Radio

Guests: Nancy Chabot • Bruce Betts • Mat Kaplan • Rae Paoletta

Guest: Badri Iunes Bruce Bates Matt Kaplan

Guest: Lindley Johnson • Casey Dreyer • Matt Kaplan

When you become a member, you join our mission to increase our discoveries in the solar system and other regions, enhance the exploration of extraterrestrial life, and reduce the risk of the Earth being hit by asteroids.

Your role in space exploration now begins.

Sign up for updates, weekly tools and exclusive opportunities to support space exploration.

You can opt out at any time. Check our privacy policy.

Enable citizens of the world to advance space science and exploration.

© 2021 Planetary Society. all rights reserved. Privacy Policy • Cookie Statement Planetary Society is a registered 501(c)(3) non-profit organization.

To make all the functions of this website work, JavaScript must be enabled. Below are instructions on how to enable JavaScript in a web browser.